Commander of Laskar Jihad

“The Fear Of Islam Is Baseless.”

The Van Zorge Report recently met with Jafar Umar Thalib, the commander of Laskar Jihad, the Islamic group currently fighting in Maluku. Given the season of introspection for both Muslims and Christians, we asked Thalib about his vision for peace in Maluku and in Indonesia as a whole.  He also gave us his views on political developments in Indonesia and the status of his ongoing case with the police.  

“The Government Refuses To See The Reality Of The Problems In Maluku As A Vertical Conflict…”

Jafar Umar Thalib:  One of the main reasons why the conflict in Maluku remains unresolved today is that the government has manipulated the conflict for its own ends. This has led to a lack of seriousness on the part of the government in resolving the problems behind the conflict.  Even today, the government refuses to see the reality of the problems in Maluku as a vertical conflict [between the government and separatists].  Instead, the government makes it appear as if the problem is purely horizontal in nature [between religious groups within the same society].  Some individuals in the local administration in Maluku are trying to conceal the vertical nature of the conflict, with the approval of certain individuals in the central government.  These individuals have manipulated the information in such a way that what appears on the surface to be a horizontal conflict between religious groups is actually nothing of the sort.  Of course, if the government remains obstinate in refusing to admit the true nature of the conflict, it will never touch on what we believe to be the essence of the problem.  What we are suggesting to the government is that it acknowledges the nature of the problem based on intelligence information available in the field.  This means accepting that what is happening in Maluku is caused by a separatist movement and not by a conflict between Muslims and Christians. 

Why do you think the government does not seem to share the same view on the conflict as Laskar Jihad, after almost three years if, as you suggest, it is a vertical conflict?

In my view this is because there is pressure from outside the country on the Indonesian government.  Many figures behind the separatist group in Maluku, who we believe are responsible for stirring the unrest in Maluku, actually live overseas.  These people have international contacts including strong backing from the US government.  This is why the government will not dare to state firmly the true nature of the conflict in Maluku.  This is the real problem and the reason why the government must be forced to see the reality on the ground.  Only then can its future decisions be based on the reality of the situation.  

If you were to succeed in pushing the government towards such a stance, how do you see the future for reconciliation in Maluku and a return of peace?

The government should act decisively and based on intelligence information it already has in its possession against the figures that are still fighting to separate Maluku from the Republic of Indonesia.  The government already knows who these figures are: their names, addresses and their movements inside Indonesia.  As long as these figures are allowed to go free and are not brought to justice for treason, all other efforts by the government to solve the Maluku problem will remain nothing more than a sideshow.  After all, hundreds of attempts at reconciliation have already been tried, only to end each time in failure.  This is because only those present at the reconciliation meetings are interested in being reconciled.  It is those who are absent but continue to create conflict who are preventing reconciliation from taking place.  It seems clear to me that the main actors behind the riots, attacks and other disturbances have been left untouched by the law.  That’s why the government’s role in this issue is pivotal.  The separatist movement will stop only when its leaders are finally arrested and brought to justice. 

“The Government Has Ignored The Basic Human Rights Of The Majority Of Indonesians, Namely Indonesian Muslims.”

Assuming there are no further problems from these ‘actors’, how can Laskar Jihad help the process of reconciliation in Maluku?

Laskar Jihad’s vision of religious harmony is quite clear.  First, we see Indonesia as an Islamic state.  In Islam, there are three categories of infidels.  The first category contains infidels who clearly attack and do their utmost to destroy Muslims physically.  These infidels have no right to live on this earth.  We will treat them as enemies and will fight them until no more remain.  The second category contains infidels who come to seek shelter under an Islamic state, who are ready to follow the rule of law in that state and who are willing to live in peace with Muslims.  These infidels will receive the same treatment as Muslims: their blood, honour and wealth will all be respected.  The third category contains infidels who are citizens of the Islamic state’s friendly countries, who have agreements with the Islamic state and who come to the Islamic state.  They respect the local rule of law.  These infidels will also be protected. 

So, if the government manages to stop the physical assaults launched by the first group of infidels and have all its leaders arrested, then the problems in Maluku will be resolved.  This will bring religious harmony and peace to Maluku, similar to the harmony we can already see in Java and Sumatra.  This is our vision of peace.

For Indonesia in general, not just in Maluku, what do you see as the way towards achieving religious harmony? Do you see syariah law as a realistic option if the aim is to create religious harmony?

The disharmony that exists between the government and Muslims in Indonesia stems from injustices committed by the government.  The government has ignored the basic human rights of the majority of Indonesians, namely Indonesian Muslims.  This injustice is seen in the way that the Muslim majority is forced to respect the rights of the minority.  Instead of respecting the rights of the Muslim majority, the government respects the aspirations of the minority in Indonesia.  This minority rejects Islam or is afraid of Islam.  Those in the majority are not granted their basic rights to practice their religion.  It should never be forgotten that Muslims are the majority in this country. 

The fear of Islam is baseless and one that results from an over-dramatisation of Islam as a fearsome religion.  The idea is cultivated that Islam will embark on genocide against the minority if Islamic law is introduced.  It is this fear that the government is concerned about.  Instead, it should be concerned about trying to explain to minorities that their fears are unfounded.  But in place of addressing these fears it opposes the basic rights of Muslims.  This has become the principal stance of the government towards Muslims who aspire to see the government uphold their constitutional rights to practice their religion. 

This problem of basic Muslim rights will persist if it is not addressed.  The same problem was present under the Old Order, was repeated under the New Order, and is still present in the reform era today.  The aspirations of Muslims are seen as a threat to the integration of Indonesia. 

History has shown that this nation is founded on three pillars: Islam, TNI/Polri and strong government.  These three pillars are currently in a condition where they are being pitted one against the other.  During the previous administration, there was this idea from former President Wahid, who suggested that communism be recognised as legal.  Once again, this was a case of the government paying too much attention to what is one of the smallest minorities in the country, the communists.  Isn’t it this sort of stance that has become more and more clear?  Isn’t it a fact now that nationalism in Indonesia has become outdated?  It is outdated because nationalism under the Old Order is identical to communism.  Later, under the New Order regime, nationalism was identical to Javanism, the aspiration to rebuild the empire of Majapahit [legendary Javanese kingdom which ruled much of the Indonesian archipelago].  Regions outside Java saw this kind of New Order nationalism as a model of colonialism by the Javanese.  Now, nationalism has a bad name in the eyes of most Indonesian people because of their frustrations with past governments.  If this continues, it will eventually pose a serious threat to national integrity.  Then, on top of this frustration there is the fact that foreign countries are financing ethnic separatist sentiments, such as in Papua and Aceh.  The Acehnese and the Papuans only laugh at speeches that talk of nationalism.  In these provinces and others, many people feel that nationalism only means that the central government will come to take away their natural resources and wealth. 

“Megawati Has So Far Managed To Accommodate Our Aspirations.  We Hope This Will Continue Into Next Year.”

The other side of the coin is Islam.  If we campaign for Islam this will unite all ethnicities in Indonesia, including the Dayaks and the Papuans, both of which comprise large Muslim communities.

What is your view of Megawati government’s performance so far?  How do you see this government performing over the next couple of years?

So far, Megawati has not done anything to help Indonesia.  Actually, she doesn’t have the potential to help Indonesia transform the current situation.  Megawati has simply benefited from the chaos and absurdity of Wahid’s presidency.  People were so traumatised by the ‘drunken’ manoeuvres of Wahid that this created the situation in which Megawati could take over the running of the government.  But the dissatisfaction at the grassroots level remains and could still break out of control.  This grassroots disillusionment could be exploited and cause political turmoil against Megawati, unless she satisfies Muslim people with her policies.  This is the only way to help to secure the situation and promote the economic self-reliance of the people.

What about the performance of Hamzah Haz?

Let’s hope he can be a cooling factor for Muslims.  If Hamzah Haz shows that he can bring about some political change, then Muslim people will remain calm.  If he can demonstrate his ability to bring such change then this will be positive for the country.

Focusing on your current case with the police, is there any progress? 

So far, the police are still refusing to drop my case [Jafar is charged with murder for initiating the stoning to death of one of his follower in Ambon who was allegedly guilty of adultery].  But at the same time the police cannot continue because they no longer have a strong enough case against me.  It’s all highly political and laughable when seen from a legal perspective. 

In the wake of the 11 September attacks in the US, do you see a problem for Laskar Jihad stemming from the reports that it is linked with terrorists?  Do you have this kind of thought at the back of your mind when you asked the police to drop your case?

Oh yes.  We know the opportunistic mentality of the police and their zeal to use any opportunity to seek fame in the eyes of the US.  There are many such police officials, especially those in the higher ranks.  This is what happened just after the government wanted to act firmly against the separatist figure Alex Manuputty [who was arrested and later convicted to five months prison recently by an Ambon court for raising a separatist flag].  Following protests from the Christian camp that I should also be arrested the police actually went ahead and had me arrested.  But their case against me was very weak.

I also see the anxiety of the US government, which is obvious from the statement made by [former US ambassador] Robert Gelbard when he said that I was a dangerous man.  He was concerned that our struggle against the separatists in Maluku somehow threatened the United States.  Even President Bush told Megawati to deal with Laskar Jihad just before she left Washington after her visit in September.  This kind of pressure from the US was seen as an opportunity to put pressure on Laskar Jihad here in Indonesia by some police officials.

What are your hopes for the New Year?

Over the past months, Muslims were concerned that the rise of Megawati to the presidency would mean that she would ignore the aspirations of Muslims.  Megawati has so far managed to accommodate our aspirations.  We hope this will continue into next year.  The results of Megawati’s accommodation of Muslim aspirations can now be seen in the more stable political situation.  This will help to make the government appear stronger in the eyes of the people, which will subsequently help towards economic recovery.  This is my hope for next year.r